[cmac1325]

These pitch count posts are starting to annoy me. Back in the day, 128 pitches were below the league norm. People are freaking out if their pitcher pitches 10 more pitches than normal for crying out loud. If a player is conditioned correctly, and is taught good mechanics, the danger of blowing out his arm is minimal. The problem today is that if a guy is successful in the minors, he won't change his bad mechanics, is inefficient with his 'pitch count' by trying to strike everyone out, and will likely one day have arm problems, even if he only throws 50 pitches a start.

Since when did going over 120 pitches become a mortal sin. Once Warren Spahn and Juan Marchial, threw an extra inning game and both pitched over 200 pitches!!!! These guys are hall of famers! I'm convinced that if Greg Maddux or Mark Prior had developed the stamina to do it(which of course they haven't), they could throw over 160 pitches every start, and it would not blow out their arm, because they have nearly perfect mechanics.
The main reason why guys are pulled around 120 pitches or less nowadays, is the fact that they have been conditioned to only throw that many, therefore start to lose their 'stuff' and 'stamina' at that point in the ballgame. Pitchers learn how to pitch by being allowed to pitch out of a jam at the point when they start to lose their stamina. How is a guy supposed to gain confidence if he's pulled everytime in these situations, because he's reached his pitch count limit? Why are we 'babying' all our young guns? Why do 'old men' like Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson average the most pitches per start, but are still 2 of the best pitchers in the league? It's because they have always conditioned themselves that way, and learnt good mechanics of pitching. If Brenly came to pull Schilling in the 7th inning of a tight game and told him he'd reached his pitch count, he'd respond something like this-"Go to Hell, Bob, I'm not coming out of this game!"
Jack Morris used to be the same way. He'd lead the league with more than 10 complete games every year. Nowadays, guys lead the league with 5 or 6 complete games(and their probably named Schilling or Johnson.)

Personally, I think pitchers blowing out their arms today, is do to the fact that many use harmful supplements or drugs to enhance their performances on the field.

Oh my god, Mark Prior just threw 130 pitches!!!! Let's go hang Dusty Baker!!!! Does he not know that he's jeopardizing the well being of the entire fantasy baseball universe!!!

Teach these kids how to pitch properly from day one, ban all use of drugs and supplements, and, for god's sake,
quit babying them!!!!!!!!!

[cardboardbox]

case in point: Wolf tossed 126 a few weeks ago and then got crushed in his next start. The evidence is there that a pitcher doesnt perform well in his next start or two after being abused (unless they are randy johnson).

[Moonlight J]

Originally posted by cardboardbox
case in point: Wolf tossed 126 a few weeks ago and then got crushed in his next start. The evidence is there that a pitcher doesnt perform well in his next start or two after being abused (unless they are randy johnson).

especially the youngsters...Odalis Perez threw his 131 and was roughed up in his next start

I get upset when I see guys under 30 piling up all of these high pitch counts. Once they are over 30, they seem more capable of handling them. However, a pitcher only has so many throws in the arm before it finally goes. Look at your pitchers who have been able to sustain their dominance over the years and it is all of your big legs/trunk guys like Seaver, Schilling, Clemens, Morris, and Ryan. None of your young guys today are built along those same lines and rely an awful lot on their arm and nibble at the plate. 20-40 years ago, you could challenge a hitter right down the pipe w/o fear of him taking you yard, but when Luis Castillo is hitting 2 homers in the same month, you can see why today's pitchers don't do the same.

[cmac1325]

Good point Moonlight! The fact that today's hitters all seem to have power, makes it difficult for young hitters to go right away hitters, therefore causes young hurlers to throw more pitches. You're also right about the thick leg/trunk guys who naturally have more power and stamina, however, guys like Maddux and Prior can do it with good mechanics. Guys like Wood and Burnett have poorer mechanics and try for a strikeout over an out.

[torridjoe]

pitch counts are useful in-season, and can warn you of a bad start about to happen--but I think IP at the end of the year are more informative. Players younger than 25 have a high burnout rate if they start pitching 200 innings consistently. You can come up with any number of examples from recent history that show correlation, if not causation, between high inning counts at 22 and 23, and sharply reduced performance around 25. Freddy Garcia comes immediately to mind. AJ Burnett is another, obviously. There are other factors, such as the amount of the jump from totals in the minors and winter ball, to major league innings. Pitch counts and BF/9 are also useful. But basically, if I see a guy with more than 200IP more than once before he's 25, I stay away. That has saved me from more than one disaster.

[pfornatale]

I don't think Spahn or Marichal were throwing 200 pitches when they were a)under 25 or b) within a couple of years of surgery. . .that's the stuff that makes people crazy about these pitch counts. . . .

Obviously pitch counts are only a part of a very complicated equation but I for one think it represents tremendous progess that people are talking about and posting about them.

Jock culture has this very screwed up and backwards idea than if these kids were just tough guys like back in the old days when the walk from the bullpen was uphill both ways blah blah blah. . .

In reality, each one of these pitchers represents an incredibly expensive, time consuming investment and frankly, it's shocking more teams don't do more to protect that.

I can't wait til someone like Will Carroll combines pitch count data and velocity data and comes up some more meaningful way for us to talk about them but until then posting about pitch counts as fine by me. . .

Anyway, just my 2 cents. . .

[rlweiser831]

This week's red alert goes out to Kerry Wood: 141 pitches in his last start. Baker had a history of this in San Francisco, particularly it seemed with Livan Hernandez.