Eddie Vedder - a bigger tool than originally thought?

[pjs24]

Yes!

Read about his stupidity here (http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/music/article/0,1299,DRMN_54_1860334,00.htm)

Again, you are free to do these things, but be mindful of potential consequences. Rumor has it he's engaged to Natalie Maines! :D

[Teenwolf]

Pearl Jam have never cared about selling records. That's why they've only made one music video over their last 6 albums. Any "potential consequences" are outweighed, in their minds, by the right to protest.

Also, the song "Bushleaguer" was written over a year ago. Like the article said, the band had used the Bush mask in concerts that took place last year, so this isn't anything new.

[B-Fly]

It goes back to my primary problem with the majority of the antiwar protests I've seen. Why protest in a way that will work against the cause you espouse? If you think Bush is really awful, why would you protest in a way that is much more likely to push anyone still on the fence into the pro-Bush camp? That's what Maines did, that's what Michael Moore did and that's what Vedder did. Much better to express your beliefs in a way people will be sympathetic to and potentially persuaded by, like Adrian Brody's remarks. Extremists on the left and right only hurt the moderates on their own side of the issue, particularly when they use inflammatory negative rhetoric to attack their opponents rather than address the issues.

[Teenwolf]

Very well said, B-Fly.

I think that for most of these people their emotion is taking over. They feel that they have to do something dramatic that will get noticed, when clearly it will only hurt their cause.

One thing that I really respected about the whole thing was when Vedder was talking about the suppression of free speech and said "I'm not gonna apologize." That shows me that he believes in his views enough that people can burn all the Pearl Jam albums they want and he won't retract what he said, as the Dixie Chicks did.

[Catfishkid]

I'm not a Pearl Jam fan, nor do I agree with anything Eddie Vedder says, but I do respect the him sticking to his views more than the Dixie Chickens. I feel what he did was distasteful and disrespectful, but legal. I applaud those who walked out.

I do think he has a twisted view of what is considered free speech. Just as he says he has the right to espouse his political views, someone else has the right to tell him to shut up. As long as it isn't a federal marshall telling him to shut up or go to jail, it is not a violation of his free speech. Ah, but we have already discussed this in the Michael Moore thread.

[RCCook]

Anyone here heard the song in question? It pretty well sucks musically, regardless of the political views it contains...

[World B. Free]

Yeah that song really sucks. The rest of the CD is pretty good.

Eddie Vedder is a way-out liberal dips**t but everyone knew that anyway. Still a great band.

[Rocket21]

Just another has-been wanting back into the limelight :rolleyes:

Go away, Eddie

[HellToupee]

Originally posted by B-Fly
It goes back to my primary problem with the majority of the antiwar protests I've seen. Why protest in a way that will work against the cause you espouse? If you think Bush is really awful, why would you protest in a way that is much more likely to push anyone still on the fence into the pro-Bush camp? That's what Maines did, that's what Michael Moore did and that's what Vedder did. Much better to express your beliefs in a way people will be sympathetic to and potentially persuaded by, like Adrian Brody's remarks. Extremists on the left and right only hurt the moderates on their own side of the issue, particularly when they use inflammatory negative rhetoric to attack their opponents rather than address the issues.

You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar , although you probably know that B-Fly ;) . Watching the Oscars eventhough I enjoy Moore's work I thought what a buffoon . Brody on the other hand delivered such a heart felt speech , agree with his feelings or not I could appreciate it.

[yoyoma]

is anyone else sick of the stories about how liberal our celebs are? frankly, i'm sick of celebs opinions period, be they liberal or conservative (Heston comes to mind). i'm also sick of stories about their stupid opinions.

[Funkley]

Originally posted by Teenwolf
Very well said, B-Fly.

I think that for most of these people their emotion is taking over. They feel that they have to do something dramatic that will get noticed, when clearly it will only hurt their cause.

One thing that I really respected about the whole thing was when Vedder was talking about the suppression of free speech and said "I'm not gonna apologize." That shows me that he believes in his views enough that people can burn all the Pearl Jam albums they want and he won't retract what he said, as the Dixie Chicks did.

I wonder if you're giving them too much credit. Is it really their emotions and frustrations because they feel so strongly? Or is it because they think it's cool to protest and the "in" thing to do? Something tells me it's a "give the people what we think they want" thing. Maybe not as much for Pearl Jam as they have a history of not caring what others think but it's the feeling I get regarding many of the celebrity anti this and that statements.

[Judge Jude]

I could not care less what a celebrity thinks about politics, or science, or philosophy, etc. Many of them are uneducated. Many more either never have lived in "the real world," or it's been so long that they've forgotten what it's like.

So Sheryl Crow might have some unrealistic views about global politics and Kid Rock is um, with Pamela Anderson? Makes no difference to me. I like that duet they do, and I'll continue to enjoy it. That is not a statement about my politics, nor my taste in plastic women. I just like the freaking song, is all.

[pjs24]

Originally posted by mattsavard
I remember one time he sang a song about american indians (he has some native american blood in him) and had a bottle of wine on the stage....he took the cork, then tried lighting the cork to char it....his lighter didn't work so I threw mine up from the front row...he burned the end and marked a war-paint pattern on his face then used his mic-stand (his fave prop) and smashed the bottle and glass on stage...then proceeded to keep chopping at the stage until he had literally cut a 4'x4' hole in the stage.....he then crawled down through the hole and the group finished out the song then left the stage for an intermission.

The point is, the guy has extremely strong opinions and a very intense demeanor.

If by intense demeanor you mean psychotic tendencies!! :D How, exactly, does destroying the stage and putting black stuff on your face make your opinions strong?

[Catfishkid]

I doubt someone with weak opinions would be able to chop a 4x4 hole in a stage and then jump into it. Nope, you would need someone with very strong opinions to do that. :)

[Funkley]

Originally posted by Catfishkid
I doubt someone with weak opinions would be able to chop a 4x4 hole in a stage and then jump into it. Nope, you would need someone with very strong opinions to do that. :)


And a pretty damn durable mic stand.

[yoyoma]

Originally posted by Funkley
And a pretty damn durable mic stand.

seriously, i've bought dressers from ikea that broke under the weight of my socks!!

[NY Baseball Fan]

Originally posted by mattsavard
They still sell out every show they play.... They are the sole survivors of the grunge era and will continue to sell out every show they play as long as they keep touring.

Yes EdVed is a liberal......yes this was a bit extreme, but it's not like he's jumping on the anti-bush bandwagon....and it's not like he's protesting the war. Eddie has ALWAYS disliked bush.....but he DOES support our troops...this had little to do with the war and everything to do with a dislike for our president.

I see nothing wrong with the display. It was a bit extravagant but he's not protesting the war or denouncing America....he's simply expressing distaste for a president with one of the more questionable backgrounds in our nation's history. To be honest, I don't particularly like Bush....IMHO he's a fairly ignorant draft dodger who is a product of his environment and the intelligent men he's surrounded himself with.

Granted, I'm not going to stick a mask of bush on a mic stand and toss it to the stage and stomp on it....BUT Pearl Jam has always had VERY intense live shows.....as someone who's seen them live 8 times I can attest to the fact that Eddie has an intensity in everything he does on stage....

I remember one time he sang a song about american indians (he has some native american blood in him) and had a bottle of wine on the stage....he took the cork, then tried lighting the cork to char it....his lighter didn't work so I threw mine up from the front row...he burned the end and marked a war-paint pattern on his face then used his mic-stand (his fave prop) and smashed the bottle and glass on stage...then proceeded to keep chopping at the stage until he had literally cut a 4'x4' hole in the stage.....he then crawled down through the hole and the group finished out the song then left the stage for an intermission.

The point is, the guy has extremely strong opinions and a very intense demeanor. The protest was probably triggered by the war but I assure you it has nothing against the troops in action....he has always been very vocal about support of our young men in action.....He just exercises his right to express his opinion of our president while on American soil. He's not one of the trendy celebs who are protesting because it's cool...he's just sticking true to his opinions and beliefs....it's just that times have changed and people can misunderstand things like this sometimes....

Well, all his "protest" can show is that he just wasn't that smart. He was in COLORADO for God's sake... it's really hard to find a place more Republican unless you go have dinner at George Bush Sr's house during the Republican primary :)

Eddie has a right to say and do what ever he wants... but he won't have too many more sold out shows in Colorado any time soon

[misterjohnny]

I think it is an excellent idea to be getting valuable advice on politics and international relations from a grunge rocker druggie who dropped out of high school. I'm sure he knows much more than people like Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell.:rolleyes:

[pjs24]

Originally posted by mattsavard
Yah and you're a Cokehead who loves little girls.

No I'm not attacking you...

LOL, then what, pretell, is that if not an attack? :D Are you Eddie Vedder's brother? Jeez. For someone who seems so vehemently against namecalling, this was a pretty poor display.

[Rocket21]

Originally posted by misterjohnny
I think it is an excellent idea to be getting valuable advice on politics and international relations from a grunge rocker druggie who dropped out of high school. I'm sure he knows much more than people like Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell.:rolleyes:

Very well said, and my point exactly.

[pjs24]

Originally posted by mattsavard
FYI....I have talked to 3 people who were actually AT the show and the vast majority of the crowd CHEERED his comments...the media is putting a serious spin on this and is actually going so far as to put words in his mouth....there were actually less than 10 people who left at that point (from the points of view of people who were AT the show....less than one-tenth of one percent of the show.....

I'm sure that count is accurate with their view from the crowd! :rolleyes: Furthermore, I wouldn't doubt that your concert-going sources spun the situation positively just as you feel the media spun it negatively.

[pjs24]

Originally posted by mattsavard
[B]Because as someone who's read some incredible political writings by Mr. Vedder I can assure you he is FAR more educated on foreign policy and politics than 90% of this board/B]

You and your percentages! :) I think you drastically underestimate the intelligence of this board. There are some well versed mother$#@&%@$ here when it comes to politics regardless of being left, right, or middle.

[misterjohnny]

Originally posted by mattsavard

No I'm not attacking you...but you have nothing to back your facts....same as me....the guy finished high school....the guy doesn't do any drugs (unless you count wine) , has actually written several songs against them....including hunger strike with chris cornell which was the one hit off an entire album of songs dedicated to a singer freind who died of a heroin overdose....half the songs are seriously against any drugs at all..

I'm not sticking up blindly for the guy, but let's not spread BS here.....


Okay, let's not spread BS here. Eddie Vedder dropped out of high school. Yes, he later went back to get his degree. Why did he drop out of school? Well, he was into drugs at the time. Gee, that makes him a grunge druggie dropout, doesn't it?
Here is a quote from an online biography of him, "These events changed Eddie as an individual. His behavior reverted to anger and hostility. Eddie's grades began to fall and he missed classes. He also got severely into drugs and refused to abide to strict drug policies administered by the Parent Alert program. "
Here is the link http://www.geocities.com/albanystudent/eddie.html

And from Eddie-vedder.com - "The tremendous hurt and trauma eventually led to Eddie’s world falling appart completely and at age 16 he dropped out of school. "

So, now that we've established that I wasn't just making $%^& up, let's address the real issue, Should we be getting our advice on world events from people who happen to be able to act, or sing, or write songs, or direct movies? Most of these people have not been to college and if they did, they studied the arts. That's great, but a knowledge of history is pretty important too. Rock stars and actors do not have access to the best information on subjects, such as what is really going on in a country, and the political currents in different countries (like the Turkish turning their backs on us to get in tight with the French so they can join the EU). Let's be honest, did any of us really know how really evil Saddam was before the first Gulf War? Showing up at an Amnesty International concert does not make a rock star well informed on a subject, just well known for it.

[B-Fly]

Ultimately, we should be open to listen to the ideas and opinions of every thinking human being, should accept no one's opinion blindly as our own, and should form our own opinions based on the collective knowledge we've acquired. I'm not sure why we have to question anyone's choice to state their opinion, whether they're celebrities, historians, politicians, etc. Evaluate the opinions using your own judgment about the speaker's intelligence, knowledge base and thoughfulness and take it as you will.

[misterjohnny]

Originally posted by mattsavard
So since you know less than powell and rice you, too, should keep your opinions of our president to yourself....that's right...in fact, the only people in our country who are allowed to have opinions now are the people in the know....the upper echelon right?

I don't stand on a stage in front of 15,000 people bashing an image of the President.

I try to keep myself well informed, and when I feel it is necessary I do give my opinions to the elected representatives. I don't use my job as a soap box (not that I really could).

What bothers me about the Dixie Chicks, Eddie Vedder, Michael Moore, etc. is that they give people the impression that theirs is the only opinion that is right. They don't say, understand the issues, read both sides and figure it out for yourself. They say "I'm embarrassed Bush is from Texas", like it is a fact that Bush's foreign policies are ridiculously wrong.

There are probably a few famous people who do the same thing on the right wing, although beyond Charlton Heston I can't think of any who are as blatant as the ones on the left. Or maybe the press just covers the left more.

People go to his concerts because they like his music. Some of them agree with the words in the songs. I like Springsteen music, I don't agree with all of his songs. It bugs me when I go to a concert and I get a social lecture with no opposing opinion. If Eddie Vedder disagrees with foreing policy or abortion rights, have him write his Representative. Or have a special concert for that cause. But don't subject music fans to your politics.

[B-Fly]

Originally posted by misterjohnny
There are probably a few famous people who do the same thing on the right wing, although beyond Charlton Heston I can't think of any who are as blatant as the ones on the left. Or maybe the press just covers the left more.


All the right-wing conservative radio show hosts are pretty much just celebrities spouting off, and there are a lot more of those on the airwaves nowadays than left-wing liberals. You've also got Rupert Murdoch, who controls the content of tons of broadcast and print media outlets and who ensures that his viewpoint is promulgated by all of them. As for celebrities in the more traditional sense, in addition to Heston you've got Schwarzenegger, the couple of Gerald McRainey and Delta Burke, Shannen Doherty, Matthew McCaughnahy, and many country music stars.

[World B. Free]

Celebrity megalomania can be annoying as hell but as non-celebrities, there's nothing we can really do about it so for my part I just laugh at it. There is no reason to respect these people's opinions anymore than that of the guy who delivers your mail. Yet they stand on their soapbox and act like they're some authoritative voice, and it's actually pretty amusing when you think about it. Most of these people have never been to college, the ones who have dropped out and many of the ones who haven't, especially musicians, never even finished high school.

Boycotting them is silly because eventually you'll run out of CDs to listen to and movies to watch. Just smile and shake your head and realize that these people are really just tarnishing their own personal reputations. Jane Fonda, for all her wealth and professional success, will never live down her actions in Vietnam and by many Americans that is what she's known for primarily. These people want to make themselves look like a-holes, let 'em. As a celebrity you can't take the money with you, but the reputation you cement and the legacy you leave defines you. For more and more of them, the reputation is talented artist, dumbass human being.

[B-Fly]

All art is a form of expression, and artists have every right to express their viewpoints in their music, poetry, writings, paintings and stage performances. To some extent they are experts in expression. Do I therefore give their opinions more credence by default because they are artists? No.

[misterjohnny]

Originally posted by mattsavard
The singer's issue with bush is a seperate one entirely and if everyone wasn't so afraid to question our government in the midst of one of the largest cases of wagging the dog I've ever seen, then this wouldn't have even made the news briefs let alone being blown out of proportion by every major news source in the country.

I hope you are not saying that our war in Iraq is to distract the public from the economy (I have heard some left wingers say that).

Do you care to back up that assertion with some facts???

[misterjohnny]

Originally posted by mattsavard
what is the difference between a guy burning an american flag infront of a crowd of 15,000 in DC and Vedder stomping on a rubber mask of bush in front of a crowd of 15,000 people on a stage? Nothing.....Both are protected speech.....

OR perhaps you might argue that the people are there to hear the music right? They don't care about his politics. Well let me let YOU in on a little secret.... Pearl Jam has always been a very overtly political group and no one has complained about it....in fact many fans ARE fans because they AGREE with their stance....ever think about that? Maybe these people go there to hear a point of view that they agree with?! Naww that couldn't be the case.

I thought I was clear on this earlier. Everyone who goes to the concert is a fan of the music. Not everyone wants to hear the musician's political manifesto. Like I said, I like Springsteen's songs. I don't agree with some of his politics. I still go to his concerts to hear his music. I didn't pay $100 to have my politics insulted.

[World B. Free]

Originally posted by mattsavard
World B Free...
While I agree with you that idiots like nicole kidman spouting off against the war are doing nothing more than providing a chuckle....there are a lot of muscial groups like rage against the machine, henry rollins, fugazi, and pearl jam who have made it a point to align themselves politically since the groups began.

These are not merely random know-nothings running their mouths because it's the cool thing to do...these are people doing the same thing they've been doing for a long time. If you don't agree with them, that's your right.....but a lot of people do.....

I agree with you that they've been doing it for along time and I certainly am not surprised at Vedder's actions especially since I was at a show in 2000 and he lectured us there. My point is that they aren't qualified to give an objective opinion, and for that matter very few people are in my book. Spouting off for ten years is still spouting off. Why should I listen to Eddie Vedder or Ian McKaye or Zack freakin' DeLaRocha?

Still, like I said, it doesn't upset me; I find it amusing.

[yoyoma]

Hey matt,

i don't mean to pick on you in anyway, but I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS IS ALL COMING FROM A GUY WITH THE PHRASE "Demote all protestors" IN HIS SIG.

You've said alot i agree w/ here, ie. pple have become blind to the govt, following like lambs, but it just sounds wierd coming from you, considering the sig. could you explain what you're views are? thnx -yoyo

[B-Fly]

Originally posted by World B. Free
My point is that they aren't qualified to give an objective opinion, and for that matter very few people are in my book.

There's no such thing as an objective opinion, and I'm not just being cute about the linguistics here. Everyone has a particular viewpoint. I don't think Vedder would say that what he's said about Bush is objective. Even news anchors have a certain angle dictated by the director or the station manager/owner. They try to be more objective than the "political commentators," but there's really no binary choice between objectivity and subjectivity when it comes to politics and world events. That's why even with news, and certainly with opinions, you should never listen to just one source to inform your own opinions.

[World B. Free]

Originally posted by mattsavard
Good for you...you can let dissenting opinion roll off your back and enjoy the parts of the artistic expression that you agree with. That is a healthy outlook IMHO. I am bombarded with dissenting opinion every day. Do I get offended at the pro-life billboards that I have to look at every day on my way to work? No...why? Because I know where I stand in my beliefs....I am still "forced" to look at them every day on my commute....but that is how life goes.....who cares....why make such a damn big deal about it.

Exactly. I'm a huge Pearl Jam fan. All that side stuff, whatever. Just don't forget to keep churning out the tunes you hippie freaks.

[B-Fly]

Originally posted by mattsavard
Certainly yoyoma...I'm glad you asked.

I agree with people expressing their opinions in a manner that doesn't hamper the day to day lives of other americans. As soon as someone's actions inhibit my ability to get to work on time because they are blocking the streets...then they've gone to far.

I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with people who are against this war....I have no problem with people who want to write their congressman or stand on a streetcorner and scream their views for all to hear...if I disagree I turn and walk away. I DO dissagree with all these idiots walking en masse attempting to disrupt the daily ebb and flow of our society.

Vedder performed a harmless act of self expression in front of a group of people who were likely WELL aware of his political views prior to entering the venue..... who is being hurt here?

Well then you're certainly putting "protestors" in a narrow box, Matt, when you suggest they should be deported. (Yes, I know it's tongue in cheek.) The majority of the anti-war protestors in this country have conducted themselves in ways that have not disrupted the daily ebb and flow of our society. To the extent demonstrations have occurred on public streets, it has generally been through proper legal channels with a permit. It frustrates me that some people so readily stereotype all people who oppose the war based upon a few radicals trying to get noticed.

[World B. Free]

Originally posted by B-Fly
There's no such thing as an objective opinion, and I'm not just being cute about the linguistics here. Everyone has a particular viewpoint. I don't think Vedder would say that what he's said about Bush is objective. Even news anchors have a certain angle dictated by the director or the station manager/owner. They try to be more objective than the "political commentators," but there's really no binary choice between objectivity and subjectivity when it comes to politics and world events. That's why even with news, and certainly with opinions, you should never listen to just one source to inform your own opinions.

I realize that, and one could easily say Bill O'Reilly is as bad as Eddie Vedder but on the other side of the spectrum. The difference is that Bill O'Reilly at least has SOME sort of credentials, such as an education and extensive experience in political media. And I'm not being pro-O'Reilly here, just using that as an example; the same could be said of many liberal media figures like Ted Rall & Maggie Gallagher. Those people have creds. Eddie Vedder has no cred in my book. Eddie Vedder is a professional singer who up until 1991 spent his entire life on a surfboard.

[World B. Free]

Been fun gents, I got some asses to go kick at pool now.

[misterjohnny]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mattsavard
Johnny...
Let's say you like an ice cream shop in compton. Let's say you go to this ice cream shop and get shot on the way. Do you have the right to complain that Compton is a bad place and you didn't deserve to be shot?
The point is...Pearl Jam is a group made of up many different means of expression....they HAVE ALWAYS BEEN a politically motivated group...they are expressing themselves through many different means about many different topics....they sing about love, war, governments, music....etc. You would have no problem with them if they tore up a poster of the backstreet boys. Why not? Because you don't like them...but if you did, you might be offended for them expressing their stance on the state of pop music and culture today..... the same holds true, to a larger extent, with their stance on politics. They express opinions about things through music and actions...if you disagree that is your right but if you're so oversensitive as to not be able to allow dissenting opinion to roll off your back then you're going to have a tough go at life.

Whether I like the Backstreet Boys has no bearing on my life or anyone else's. Whether or not we have a pro-active policy on terrorists residing outside our country does. I don't have a problem with dissenting opinions. I have a problem with the fact that stars in general (I don't know if EV fits this or not) use the fact that they are stars, and the fact that far too many people in this country are sheep that worship at the feet of celebrities, to influence the direction of the country. If a celebrity got up on stage and said, "I believe in X, but go out and educate yourself on the subject, starting with the writings of A and B (who happen to have different opinions)" That would be great. But they don't. They stand in front of microphones and spout slogans like "no war for oil" and count on their celebrity status to sway the syncophants who worship them. I have a problem with Aaron Sorkin using The West Wing as his own soap box. I agree with many of his issues, but since Bush has been in the White House he has given up all pretense of balance. When asked about it, he said (paraphrasing) it was his show and if the right wanted to have their opinions they could get a hit show. He's right, in that it is his show, but I think he is wrong in using it as a soap box and refusing to show alternative points of view.

[misterjohnny]

Originally posted by mattsavard
.....and Vedder closed the segment with something to the effect of "I don't care who you vote for...but too many young people fail to utilize the power of the ballot......I expect EVERY one of you to use that power next week."

I'm sorry, but that quote is a crock. Great, he's for democracy. I guess we agree on something. But unless he's going to put a Jesse Helms supporter on stage, he's basically a get out the vote for the opposing candidate.

I find it interesting that MTV had a Rock the Vote inauguration party in 1992 and 1996, but decided not to have one in 2000. Just a little more bias from our liberal friends.

[misterjohnny]

Matt - this will be my last post on the subject, I think we've beat it to death.

Yes, yes, yes, EV can spout off all he wants at his concerts, its a free country. BUT, he's not doing anything to raise the level of debate regarding the issues. He is merely giving his opinion, and despite your adoration of the man, he is still an artist and not a historian, political scientist, scholar, or even journalist. His opinions are given far too much weight, and to give him credit for being a great humanitarian for speaking his mind on stage is a stretch.

I don't care when he started bashing the image of the President on stage, I think it is an inappropriate form of protest (yes, he can do it if he wants, but he's going to piss off a lot of people including fans of his music). Just as it was inappropriate for Sinead O'Connor to rip up the picture of the Pope on SNL. I believe that the reason for the backlash against EV isn't that he's against the government, but it is the way he did it. Lots of people disagree with Bush, but when you perform a violent act against someone's image, that starts to get personal, and people object to that.

As for me, I go to concerts for the music. I'll heed your advice and avoid EV's. Maybe I'll just burn a Pearl Jam CD off the internet instead. ;)